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ademare:
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bigvlada:
Kina ima knowhow da pravi i Xeon i Zen jezgra za sopstvene servere (jer ne može da uvozi superračunare) uz saradnju sa originalnim proizvođačima. Može i bez toga ali je to onda sporije i skuplje.
Ovo sto ti Tvrdis ne proizilazi iz ovih linkovanih tekstova !!
Ovaj prvi o Intelu govori o tome da je Kineska Akademija osmislila svoj projekat , a da Intel moze da u okviru jednog cipa , znaci u jednom kucistu stavi , svoj Xeon i ovaj Kineski proizvod ! Nista vise . Nigde da Kinezi imaju licencu da
proizvode Xeon ili bilo sta drugo .
Drugi je vrlo slican , govori o serverskom AMD procesoru za Kinesko trzite . Nigde ne pise da je AMD prodao licencu da Kina pravi Zen procesore ? Niti ce to biti , ikada !
Sto se tice ostalog , vidi se da pratis , ali ti sustina bezi !
To sto Kinezi stancuju Zastarele procesore sa MIPS arhitekturom , ne znaci da je to po medjunarodnom pravu Legalno ! Naprotiv , radi se o Piratskom projektu , takodje iste ove Kineske akademije ! Tzv . reverse inzinjering . Nista vise .
Slicno je bilo i sa ARM-om ! Prvo je opet ova ista akademija , napravila Piratski ARM, a onda je naknadno kupljena licenca , da bi se ti proizvodi mogli izvoziti .
Da si pratio Trampove zamerke , Kini , upravo se glavna zamerka i odnosi na povrede Intelektualne svojine ! Izmedju ostalog i cipovi , ne samo ovi nabrojani , vec mnogo onoga sto proizvode .
Za intelove proizvode Kina nema Licencu , ali X86 naredbe , to se piratuje decenijama ! I Ruski projekat je dualni, cip izvrsava i sopstveni skup naredbi , a ima i X86 mod . To nikako ne znaci da Kinezi i Rusi imaju licencu za Zen ili na
primer za i7 procesore bilo koji !
Da, slažem se da sam prvi tekst na brzinu pročitao, ali ne i za ostalo. Objasniću. Nema potrebe za uskličnicima, nije da je u pitanju rasprava na život i smrt.
Opaska za Varšavski pakt je bila odgovor na tvoju tvrdnju da niko nije proizvodio Intelove procesore.Jesu, samo je pitanje koliko su druge zemlje spremne da ulože novca i ljudskih resursa u to. Obama je 2015. zabranio Intelu da izvozi Xeone u Kinu. Ono što sada pokušavaju, istina prvo sa Atomima je pristup koji koristi Arm, tj. da prodaju dizajn za neke specifične namene. Slično kao što je AMD radio sa procesorima za ovu novu kinesku konzolu. Oni ne mogu da izvoze gotove Xeone u Kinu a nejasno je gde će se proizvoditi jezgra koja Kinezima trebaju za sopstvene projekte i kako će se ugrađivati kineski delovi procesora. Bumo videli.
Reverzni inženjering sam po sebi nije piraterija, inače ne bi uopšte bilo PC kompatibilaca već bi svi koristili samo IBM mašine (ne bi bili mogući Ami i Award BIOS-i). Imaš i projekat koji reverznim inženjeringom pokušava da stvori pandan Windows NT OS-a (ReactOS). Patenti zastarevaju tako da bih danas i ja, da imam para mogao da pravim sopstveni 486 procesor. Drugo, strane kompanije (npr. IBM sa svojom Power 9 arhitekturom koju nisam pominjao u prethodnom postu) nude licence za svoje arhitekture.
Što se tiče Trampovih kukanja o krađi intelektualne svojine u širokom spektru tehnologija (a koje su se definitivno masovno dešavale i dešavaju se), mogu samo da se grohotom nasmejem. SAD su se ponašale identično u odnosu na Britance tokom celog devetanestog veka. Rusi nisu u istoj priči.
Priča oko AMD-a je mnogo pikantnija.
AMD and Haiguang jointly adopted a two-layer architecture design
According to the information collected by the network, AMD and Haiguang jointly established two companies, namely Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd. and Chengdu Haiguang Integrated Circuit Design Co., Ltd. Among them, Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd. AMD Holdings 51%, Tianjin Haiguang Advanced Technology Investment Co., Ltd. held 49%. 70% of the shares of Chengdu Haiguang Integrated Circuit Design Co., Ltd. are held by Tianjin Haiguang Advanced Technology Investment Co., Ltd., and 30% of the shares are held by AMD. The two companies' main business and the power they enjoy are also different. Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd. enjoys IP ownership and is responsible for the production of chips. Chengdu Haiguang Integrated Circuit Design Co., Ltd. is responsible for SoC/CPU design and final sales work.
In other words, the normal process is that Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd. owns the ownership of Zen from AMD, and then Chengdu Haiguang IC Design Co., Ltd. can purchase Zen's IP license from Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd. for chip design. A bit similar to Huawei's licensed SoC for the ARM Cortex A72/73. After that, Chengdu Haiguang Integrated Circuit Design Co., Ltd. commissioned the designed SoC/CPU into Duhaiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd. Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd. is responsible for the production of contact with AMD and Groffont or TSMC, Samsung and other foundries to stream.
Then Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd. sold the CPU that completed the package test to Chengdu Haiguang Integrated Circuit Design Co., Ltd. Chengdu Haiguang Integrated Circuit Design Co., Ltd. finally sold in its own name.
Over and over again, I think many readers are confused. The reason is so complicated that it avoids Intel's patent restrictions and meets the requirements of joint ventures to sell overseas CPUs in domestic status.
What happened?
Because AMD has very strict restrictions on X86 authorization, it is impossible for AMD to directly give X86 authorization to China. It must bypass the patent restrictions by means of a two-tiered joint venture and disguised selling IP licenses. If the joint venture company is controlled by AMD and the CPU company is controlled by foreign capital, it obviously does not meet the minimum requirements of the state for the identification of localized enterprises. If foreign capital is controlled, many national projects cannot participate, which will inevitably affect the joint venture company. The strength of support. Moreover, to encourage consumers to buy the CPU of the joint venture company, foreign investment holding is difficult to carry out public opinion packaging. In addition, it is easy to be questioned by the foreign-controlled joint venture CPU company with the banner of “autonomous, controllable and safe”. As such, AMD and Haiguang have adopted an extremely complex two-layer architecture design.
Double-layer architecture design is a blessing
According to the division of labor, Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd. enjoys IP ownership and is responsible for the production of chips. Chengdu Haiguang Integrated Circuit Design Co., Ltd. is responsible for chip SoC design, and final sales work. In this way, the most important IP, that is, Zen's code and intellectual property rights, is in the hands of Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd., and AMD holds 51% of the shares of Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics
Technology Co., Ltd., that is, Regardless of the proportion of equity, or the actual control of intellectual property rights, Zen's code is still in the hands of AMD. In addition, AMD/Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd. has mastered the very important production and pricing rights - SoC/CPU designed by Chengdu Haiguang Integrated Circuit Design Co., Ltd. commissioned Chengdu Haiguang Integrated Circuit Design Co., Ltd. to produce, Chengdu Haiguang Integrated When Circuit Design Co., Ltd. sold the chip back to Chengdu Haiguang Integrated Circuit Design Co., Ltd., the price was determined by AMD/Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd. In short, the core technology and pricing power are in the hands of AMD.
In comparison, Chengdu Haiguang IC Design Co., Ltd. can only do IP integration for integration. In fact, it can't do much. At most, the entire code is taken from AMD/Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd., and the process runs again. Moreover, in this process, Chengdu Haiguang IC Design Co., Ltd. is very difficult to have the opportunity to eat through Zen code, it is difficult to master the core technology.
What is the reason?
Because AMD has to give the source code to the domestic unit is still not easy to say. Admittedly, AMD is giving some code to domestic units, but the code is also different, for example, to the source code, or to the netlist is very different - the source code is the hardware description language, is a high-level language, if AMD gives The source code, and the design documentation, but also the hands-on guidance, and never hide, do not play tricks, then the domestic units do have the possibility of digestion and absorption, but it also takes years. However, if only the netlist is given, the netlist can be understood as the language of the intermediate language or assembly language after the C language is compiled. The netlist is the gate-level description language and becomes the gate-level netlist. It is very difficult to understand afterwards. In addition, even if the source code is given, but the design documents are not given, and there is not a high-level domestic team with the ability, it is still a no-brainer. For such a complicated structure of Zen, it is difficult to digest and absorb it. - After all, the CPU's microstructure is too complicated, even if Zen's source code is readable and writable, domestic units do not have the technical capabilities to modify this. What's more, Zen is in the hands of AMD/Chengdu Haiguang Microelectronics Technology Co., Ltd., and there is also a legal problem for Haiguang's Chengdu Haiguang IC Design Co., Ltd. to modify it.However, things also have a positive side. After all, AMD is giving Zen code, which is no problem in terms of technological advancement, at least giving Chinese domestic teams an opportunity to contact the best technology in the United States.
Conclusion
Although Haiguang and AMD joint ventures have enabled China to access the best CPU design technology in the United States, there are still many problems with this two-tier architecture. This two-tier architecture does not enable China to actually obtain X86 licenses, and all code is controlled by AMD. In the hands, all production links are also controlled by AMD, and the core intellectual property, technology and pricing are still firmly in the hands of AMD.Perhaps as AMD claims, AMD's establishment of a joint venture in China also complies with US law. This two-tier architecture design still does not break through the vest model of some industries and foreign joint ventures. As far as the business prospects are concerned, since AMD's Zen is also sold in China, the performance of joint venture CPUs in the purely commercial market depends to a large extent on whether AMD's technology can take food from Intel's hands and AMD is willing to give joint ventures. How much benefit the company gives out. If the two companies that are affiliated with AMD can realize that they do not rely on government blood transfusions and can take food from Intel, it is also very good!
Once in the pure commercial market, Tianjin Haiguang Advanced Technology Investment Co., Ltd. and the Chengdu government, Tianjin government and Shuguang company behind the company may be kidnapped by AMD. Especially when it is difficult
to achieve self-financing in the pure commercial market, some people will inevitably hit the government market. Once Chengdu Haiguang IC Design Co., Ltd. wants to play a self-controllable card, then this will be combined with other so- called joint ventures. Like the CPU, it has become a stumbling block in the development of domestic independent controllable information technology.
https://www.guancha.cn/tieliu/2017_07_20_419097_2.shtml
Ono što ne znamo je koliku pomoć je AMD pružio tokom dizajna CPU-a. U najmanju ruku, inženjeri će dobiti praktično iskustvo u radu sa najnovijom tehnologijom mikroprocesora.
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Ivan Dimkovic:
Mislim da svakako mozes implementirati bar matori podskup X86 naredbi bez ikakvih licenci, ali to nece ukljuciti x64 ili vektorske instrukcije.
Takodje na bilo kakav interkonekt sa postojecom Intel platformom (Xeon ili ne) mozes da zaboravis, posto su kompletna komunikacija i specifikacije proprietary. Ne verujem da ni Kinezi mogu da urade reverzni inzenjering nekog modernog
Xeon sistema tako da mogu da ubadaju svoje stvari koje direktno komuniciraju sa Xeon CPU-om, osim ako to njihovo nije samo add-on PCIe kartica i sistem je vidi kao periferiju. Sve ostalo, jedino resenje im je ili legalna licenca ili
piraterija referentnog koda i tehnicke dokumentacije.
IMHO, Kinezi su sasvim unutar mogucnosti da naprave komplet svoju arhitekturu (od nule) koja nece biti konkurentna najnovijim Xeon-ima, EPYC-ima ili Power-ima ali svakako da im moze raditi posao za vojnu / bezbednosnu upotrebu.
Nesto relativno jednostavnog instrukcijskog seta sto moze masovno da se paralelizuje i, eto, mogu da rade simulacije eksplozija atomskih bombi sa zadovoljavajucom preciznoscu (mislim to se radilo pre N godina, kada su racunari bili
solidno sporiji), predvidjaju vremensku prognozu itd... a embedded cipice mogu da stave u svoje pucaljke.
Naravno, ali tu onda dolazi na red sudska presuda koja je imala dalekosežne posledice.
FTC Settles Charges of Anticompetitive Conduct Against Intel
https://www.ftc.gov/news-event...petitive-conduct-against-intel
In addition, the FTC settlement order will require Intel to:
modify its intellectual property agreements with AMD, Nvidia, and Via so that those companies have more freedom to consider mergers or joint ventures with other companies, without the threat of being sued by Intel for patent infringement;
offer to extend Via’s x86 licensing agreement for five years beyond the current agreement, which expires in 2013;
maintain a key interface, known as the PCI Express Bus, for at least six years in a way that will not limit the performance of graphics processing chips. These assurances will provide incentives to manufacturers of complementary, and potentially competitive, products to Intel’s CPUs to continue to innovate; and
disclose to software developers that Intel computer compilers discriminate between Intel chips and non-Intel chips, and that they may not register all the features of non-Intel chips. Intel also will have to reimburse all software vendors who want to recompile their software using a non-Intel compiler.
Summa Summarum, VIA ima licencu za kompletan X86-64 kod.
Da, dalje razvijaju MIPS/Alpha/Sparc arhitekturu za različite, uske namene. sa Via-om je situacija drugačija, tu im je cilj da zamene Intel u milionima državnih računara koji obavljaju kancelarijske poslove kao i po školama i sličnim ustanovama. Zhaoxin je kompanija koju su osnovali VIA i kineska vlada za tu namenu. Kako se vidi iz grafikona iz mog prethodnog posta, tek je KX-5000 drastično drugačiji procesor od prethodnika koji su se zasnivali na sitnim unapređenjima postojećih VIA jezgara.